Dewsbury Veil Row

Shahid Malik is proper getting on my nerves too with all the comments he comes out with, he clearly does not speak on behalf of the muslim community that he claims to and needs to learn about islam before he makes such a comment.

Aishah Azmi has the full support of myself and all the muslims that i know and have talked with about this matter. The sister is firstly doing the right thing by wearing a veil (which the majority dont for their own personal reasons and opinions) as she is following islam.

Why does the teacher have to look at her face for when communicating and the children dont have to look at her either, what is the school actually teaching? "How teachers look like?"

As far as i remember we live in a free country and Jack Straw has to take the blame for this, making a statement about women wearing veils a while back.

Everyday i read a paper or the news there is crictism about muslims.

Im glad you put this up check this out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6074286.stm

Ok people, please dont leave hate mail on my blog, but i totally back shahid malik. She is not doing Islam any favours, and im sorry she needs to realise she is living in BRITAIN, if she wants to wear a veil, go to an islamic country. I have a personal reason for being pissed off tho and it may be biasing my comments but i dont understand why veiled woman come into medicine. I am sorry but its unacceptable, and then to turn around and sue your medical school for not allowing you to wear it is such ridiculousness, there are certain areas in which security is needed, and hospitals and schools are right the way up there. I hate it when stupid ppl go around making a big issue out of things, like for example, veiled girls in my med school (who hypocritically never wear it to interview and subsequently get let in) who refuse to do anything in a group with boys in it.....ok so if a guy rolls in about to die u wont touch him because OOOOOH HES A MALE. Get out of here, you piss me off. I am not even writing a coherent message because i am busy frothing at the mouth. Dont get me wrong, im not anti the veil, im not some crazy person, im a girl that dresses very modestly but i dont wear hijab. infact i dont even know why im justifying myself here. I dont get how people can expect to come to a country and then expect that country to bow down to their ways of life, you are living in the wrong place, go somewhere where it wont be an issue! And i am sorry but if this teacher woman had SUCH abig issue, go to a freaking convent and teach there, go to an all girls school, there are ways around it. Instead you go be a fool, and because of you hundreds of muslims in mosques around england are having eggs and bricks thrown at them, just so you could make your goddamn stupid point. Again dont get me wrong, im not saying she shudnt wear the veil, im totally for it, but your in ENGLAND for godssake!!!!!! AAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beeamma,

You're right these confused girls are testing the limits of western tolerance. Wait till they really had to live in segregated society then they’ll really know its implications.

REF: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

Tosseef,

I too have problem with your argument.

Muslim women's hands and face should be uncovered during Hajj.

REF: http://www.hajinformation.com/main/t25.htm

And they can't cover their face on their Hajj application photo as it specifically states. “The photograph must be a full-face view in which the visa applicant is facing the camera directly.”

REF: http://www.saudiembassy.net/Travel/Hajj.asp

I think it is ridiculous to ask west to change their ways on religious basis when the supreme Islamic state wouldn’t honor it as it is not a religious requirement.

hey mariam, you got a blog?

Beeamma,

No I don't :(.

Toseef,

We do know that racism in England has increased as this post shows

http://omarulhaq.blogspot.com/2006/10/racism.html

but this is the wrong way to ask for equal rights.

Same here beeamma and mariam i dont want to cause an argument on this blogg but im completly against what you have said. Im a british born muslim, i have as much right to stay in this country as anyone (tho i know it may not work out that way). Most importantly my identity is Muslim first, not indian/pakistani/begali etc. Regardless of which country you live in the quran and your religon does not change, islam is not against women doing well as long as they go about it the way this sister is going.

This is the problem in our community of ignorance, too much confussion (sign of qiyamat) and no unity.

Whaen you enter your grave you wont be asked what country you lived in and that aint going to be an excuse for commands of Allah (swt) not obeyed in the correct manner.

Again apologies to both of you if you are offended in any way.

Personally, I think they are wrong for suspending her. They have no right to tell her what to do in regards to wearing something for her religion. It isn't like it was doing an harm to anyone. If it was truely a problem, in that students couldn't hear her, they should have given her a chance to fix it. She could have written everything out and handed it out so that no one was lost, she could have worn a microphone...anything small.

My question is was she asked to fix the problem or just asked to take off her veil?

If she was asked to fix the problem and didn't then she should have been fired.

If she was asked to remove her veil to fix teh problem then she should not have been.

PS..I do believe Beeamma is right in that women who wear these things and take it off to interview for medicine is tricky, wrong and annoying. Also, I think if they can't work in a group with only women, they should understand that medicine means interacting this way. She's right in that men come into emergency rooms too. Maybe they should make a school of medicine for only women. They know what htey are getting into when they apply.

Medicine is something different, teaching shouldnt be a problem. Aparantly there were no problems for weeks until her timetable changed and she had to work alongside a teacher with a problem. Kids never complained at all and maybe when the problem of this teacher was bought to attention kids went along with it.

VERY VERY WRONG.

Rio yeah I agree with you mate and that was the article that prompted me to write this post, god knows what they’ll link it to next.

Hey Bee Amma I can see where you’re coming from about all this, though I think because of the situation (girls wearing veils in medicine) around your work it’s causing you to be biased. When you say she is not doing Islam any favours, since when was Islam about compromise? The way I see it if you’re doing something which is not allowed in Islam atleast have the decency to say “yes it’s wrong but I do it because of such and such” and not incorporate it into religion. As for having to move country just to be allowed to wear a veil is harsh by any standards. Last time I checked the UK does have freedom of speech and to practise any religion we want.

I do agree with you on the medicine front though as it affecting the work directly (e.g. not treating a male) but you yourself will know that a school is totally different than a medical lab or hospital. According to Islam a women don’t have to wear a veil infront of pre-adolescent children, a school is likely to be 90% children – compare this to a medical lab and you’ll know the percentage of not having to wear a veil will be much less.

The only thing Aishah Azmi was doing is wearing a veil when it was a male teacher, I don’t think this would affect the support she was offering the students one bit. This is like saying you can’t hear women who wear a veil and believe me you can. I’ve worked in a supermarket and the one I worked at had loads of hijabi customers.

Once again, I think the situation at work is causing you to be a meanie about the whole issue. I really appreciate your post and thank you for an honest reply!

Mariam the events that took place in the link you gave is an unfortunate circumstance; I don’t want to get into Saudi laws because that is a whole major issue where I know tempers will be fraying.

About women’s faces being uncovered that is correct but as far as I know that is specifically for those performing hajj. The requirements on the hajj application are totally separate to Islamic laws; then again it does make sense to have a mugshot for identification purposes ;-)

If an Islamic state does not have it as a religious requirement that doesn’t mean those who prefer to wear it can’t.

I haven’t read much of the link given referring to increased racism, however I do agree it has (luckily haven’t experienced any myself) and the main reason I would say is the media coverage and perception of “terrorism” in the media.

Sobiiii! Thanks for dropping by and to let everyone know it was remove or die (ok I’m exaggerating that bit). The veil was the problem and you know how she felt about that.

G-unit, yeah I heard the same. Like I said in my post I’m curious to know if this teacher was a male.

Phew, long post. Would have replied earlier but you know how it is with Eid an’ all that stuff. Another thing is I hate the way the media portrays Dewsbury, it’s a fabulous place – you should check it out for yourselves sometime!

im not a meanie :( At the end of the day, we are not living in an islamic state and we have to live by the rules of the country that we are in. I disagree with you that a school is not like a hospital, both need security, and its unfair to have a person who is in authority and has the ability to abuse it to not be easily identified. I think its easy for us to sit here and moan about just us being victimised, but recently a member of BA staff was ordered to take off the cross around her neck cos apparently they aren't allowed to show that they belong to any particular religious group, even though nobody said anything to the muslim members that wear scarfs. The GP im with at the moment (caucasian, strict christian upbringing) reckons the reason we have so much trouble in britain is because instead of respecting peoples differences, they are trying to homogenise (Sp?) us and wipe away peoples distinctiveness and instead it makes people rebel....and he totally sympathises with muslims. There are some damn nice people out there that are looking beyond what the media tells them, and they need some credit, with us also taking some of the blame upon ourselves.
I dont want to get into an argument about this, but what is the ruling of the veil in the quran?
I dont think its unreasonable to expect these people to go to countries where they are allowed to practise their religion freely. I dont think in schools it is a matter of "kids cant hear through the veil" , it may be a security issue, who knows. I don't think the matter was very simple, she had been working at the school for what 3 weeks, until the issue came up? Did she wear it to the interview is what i would like to know.

When I said meanie I meant it in reference to how the situation at your work is causing you to have a negative opinion about this matter, and not how you may be as a person. About the school versus hospital thing, we have to think as to how the veil would affect both work places (and what the chances of it being required are according to Islam) and like I said women would find themselves in more of a situation to wear a veil in a hospital than in a classroom. For that reason I would say both places are very much different.

About Muslim’s wearing scarf’s at work, the same goes for Sikh’s wearing a turban and Hindu’s having a red dot in the middle of their foreheads (sorry, don’t know what that’s called) but nobody says anything about that.

In the Quran it says women should cover themselves and not flaunt their femininity to the world except to their husbands and a part of this is to cover their hair (i.e. cover their head).

The UK is a country where you can practice your religion freely and if I am correct it says so in the Freedom of Rights Act. They didn’t suspend her on the sole basis of her wearing a veil but because of the alleged implications it had on her as job a teacher and that is what she was disputing in the courts.

The reason given for suspending this lady from her line of work is “communication issues” (see the first quote in this post – the one in grey) and not about security as you mention or any other issues for that matter.

I had thought about the interview process before I put up the post and read a BBC article where it says she didn’t wear a veil. When asked why, she says she was caught “unawares” by having a male interviewer. Yes, I admit this does cause flaws in her case. Then again what if a woman who is working as a teacher has a renewed strength in faith that she begins to wear a veil would they suspend her too?

Tell me Bee if there was no prior conflict of interest with the hijab (by this I mean the situation at your workplace) would your opinion regarding this matter be any different?

I can hand on my heart say that my opinion would be the exact same. The girls i was talking about didn't have a negative impact on us in any way, we didn't get treated any differently for being muslims.....i just thought it was a ridiculous thing to expect. Even recently the dean of our university sent a mass email out because a bunch of girls refused to have a male student supervise them in clinical skills teaching (which is what he is trained and being paid to do) and i thought it was gracious of her to send a polite email out telling people its not correct and if there are any particular issues she is not aware of can they please make her aware of them. Personally i think they should have been kicked out without a second thought.
I feel strongly about this, its unreasonable to expect to be in a non islamic state, and want them to conform. This teachers argument that she was caught "unawares" by a male teacher makes me raise my eyebrows. If she thought she may have had a male teacher around and felt strongly about it she should have worn it anyway. You say that we should have freedom to practise our religion, but get real, we don't have freedom of speech here as much as they would like to think they we do! And freedom of speech and freedom of religious expression are a hundred times more surpressed in places like pakistan. For example, do you have any idea how much persecution of christians, shias, and ahmadis happens in pakistan? Yes it would be ideal if we could express religious freedom here, and yes we should have the right to do it, but we must first look at our own islamic states and see what they allow/don't allow us to do before expecting a place like England to let us do it! And its not just us, as i said some girl even got told to remove her cross, i didn't hear about her sueing anyone. You made the point about hijab, i wasn't making a point about that, the hijabis were spared. I don't know if you read in the news, but recently the police thought it would be best in the spirit of Ramadan to not arrest muslims (Criminal ones) during ramadan. Of course this never happened cos even muslims thought that was ridiculous, but hey don't you think we deserve to give these people a little bit of a break? The way its going at the moment, the way we respone like idiots, standing with our banners saying we should behead all ppl that say anything against our prophet, we will end up like france, religious signs of any kind will be banned, and these people will end up leaving the country. im just saying they should do it now, save everyone else the hassle. Sorry if this is blunt, but im tired of this debate now, and i really do think we take the piss sometimes!

oh and eid mubaraks!!! hehe, naa i didn't watch any movies, we had people come over, bhai ka rishta pakka hua, so all in all a nice day. Had to go into my gp practise and run clinics all day long till 6pm tho!! how about you?

It is totally wrong, i mean come on she's working with children, she should not be fired as m sure she wudnt be covering in front of the children all the time, i believer its the male teachers she's having a problem with and that should be accepted and resepcted regardless what others may feel, and as Rio mentioned, it had been 3 weeks then they decided it was a problem, y didnt they tell her it wasnt acceptable for em in the first week she started teaching?
surely that is against the school policy somewhere as i work in schools and i know every school has an equal opportunity's policy!

can i just point out quickly, im not against the veil at all. I thought jack straw was a dick for saying he made women remove it because of "communication issues" Like i said, theres a place for it, i don't think schools is one of them. not if you are wearing it in class i mean, fair enuf infront of a male colleague thats acceptable. I have realised it may seem i am going back on my argument. What my general gist is that
a) don't dupe people into letting you into institutions by not wearing the veil at interviews
b) Dont expect so much of a country thats not an islamic state

B is probably my bigger point.

Good night and god bless. Interesting post :P :)
Shabba Khair people!

UK is very multi-cultural so its a free world y shudnt she be able to fight for what is right! she's not harming the kids, it doesnt affect her teaching
oh n just a reminder; please dont try and change a sentence where Allah has already put a full stop, shaytaan will try and put a commar, but us Muslims should stick together and never let that full stop change, this might be a silly example, but my wise uncle made me understand this way, and a freind also made me realise that majority of the times us Muslims make more difficult for our sisters and brothers in Islam as it's us muslims who are not uniting and helping by crticising her, bless her she is only following the commandments from Allah!

Sorry one last point toseef....you mentioned that no one says anything about sikhs turbans or hindus tikkas, well actually no one says anything about the muslim SCARF. No one says anything about the jilbaab. The only problem is with the nikaab part. And only in certain circumstances.

Rio,

Then you are in a wrong country. If your religion is the most important thing then what are you doing in a Secular Society. Aren't you violating their rights?

Toseef,

I mentioned about performing Hajj without Veil just to support my point that Veil is not mandatory in Islam as people are performing Hajj since the Prophet times and not many things has changed in the way it performed. If Veil was mandatory surely women have started wearing it after the advent of Islam.

Let’s keep this discussion for another time and another place.

As far as I know most British Muslims of Pakistani origin are on some kind of Social Assistance which is only possible from the system which is based on profit and loss. In Islam one is not allowed to do business with anyone if interest is involved. Now people wants women to follow Islam but one never heard a Muslim Men rejecting social assistance as it is against the teaching of Islam.Why there is so much conflicting attitudes? I know most Imam is from Middle East like this guy
http://lightnessofbeing.wordpress.com/2006/09/27/letter-to-the-imam-who-gave-a-short-khutbah-last-night/
and I guess they’re too quick to preach their form of Islam and some confused Desi’s are following it as they haven’t done their prerequisite reading of Quran. That’s why they are making girls to wear Jilbab while any modest dress would fulfill dress requirement.

At this link Author gave some damn good points about Veil.

http://politeindian.wordpress.com/2006/10/19/embrace-our-culture-or-leaveis-that-what-it-is/

Let me summarize my comment that yes that girl has right to wear whatever she wishes whether her religion demands it or not but what about other people’s right when they feel uncomfortable among veiled person. Would you sit beside a GUY whose face is hidden behind a mask? I know I wouldn’t.

Mariam like iv said im a British born muslim,i didnt chose to be born in this country but im as British as anyone out there. Its like saying we shouldnt have a mosque as it aint a muslim country, at times of salaat the men separate from non-muslims and thats separating.

We should try an explain the importance of wearing a veil to non-muslims rather than agree with what they say. It aint their fault as they dont have knowledge, but we do dont we?

Remember islam is all about giving dawat, it started in Saudi Arabia and it spread across the World. Your just saying go to another country, the people at the time faced many hardships but kept the imaan strong.

Just doesnt seem right hearing this from a fellow muslim, all these people who die without imaan are our responsiblity and we will be asked on the day of judgement why we didnt invite them to the true religon?

Maybe this is an opportunity to make an effort in these circumstances? As muslims it is important to have knowledge about situations such as this, unfortunatly i dont to take actions but then i aint gonna not back this sister.

muslims are not united though, and we find it so hard to take criticism from both ourselves and others. How else are we supposed to better ourselves? We should be engaging in thoughtful dialogue, not just blindly following anything, and also we should be explaining things to others properly instead of saying "cos my religion says so"
About the point about comma and full stop, im not sure what you were referring to.
And mariam, i could give you a hug right now, yes so many people are on benefits over here, cuss the system anyway, and want MORE RIGHTS! Its ridiculous!!!
As for supporting anyone, i refuse to support anyone on the basis that they are muslims, or my family, or my friends. I try to be as fair as possible, if i feel someone is wrong, i will say it whether they are black white pink yellow, jewish hindu muslim christian sikh, whatever. Thats what islam teaches us.
We want people to be tolerant towards us whereas we are some of the most intolerant ppl ever. The whole prophet cartoon thing for one, i had many issues with it. Astaghfirullah it was bad, it was awful and cartoonists shouldn't have done it. Does that mean you ban danish products, burn down their embassy, hold plaques above your head calling for the beheading of these people?!?! Its so ridiculous!!!! And what my problem is that when cartoonists make fun of jesus we never bat an eyelid, he was our prophet too, and if we are not supposed to make differences between prophets (its in the quran, details will follow later) then why don't we respond like that in those circumstances?

Rio,

"Just doesnt seem right hearing this from a fellow muslim, all these people who die without imaan are our responsiblity and we will be asked on the day of judgement why we didnt invite them to the true religon?"

No personal attacks please and now you are off the hook since you tried.

Don't you think - The same west that gave you the right to live and preach freely gave me and others the right to refute it and that's what we are doing.

BTW, I came to the west with my free will to take advantage of its opportunities and freedom and I’m glad I’m taking full benefit of it.

For further info. about my way of thinking read
http://politeindian.wordpress.com/2006/10/19/embrace-our-culture-or-leaveis-that-what-it-is/
and see what I've written in the comment section.

P.S. I see there no new ideas are coming in so it's time to move on.

A bit late to the debate, but offering my perspective anyway, as a person who lives in the Middle East:

As far as i am aware (and i've read various translations of the Quran), covering the face is NOT a requirement. in fact, if i remember correctly, the key is to dress modestly and cover your bosom, all private parts, ensure you don't draw attention to yourself etc. in fact, interestingly enough, a discussion on Islam raised the point that in cases (like a secular/foreign country) where you stand out wearing a veil, it is better to abandon it, because you end up attracting more attention (and the key point in Islam is to refrain from doing just that).

Anyway, i find it pretty ridiculous that this is a debate at all because frankly, I doubt that this girl would be offered a job in any school, even in the middle east (unless it is strictly a school for Muslims only). She would not be able to work as a receptionist either. Believe me, I know, as i work in the recruitment industry and the hiring of any male or female depends a lot on their personality, their appearance and their interpersonal skills. Once you cover your entire face, you do not look 'friendly' or approachable at all. And teachers MUST look approachable. I would even go so far as to say, especially as far as children who do not come from Muslim backgrounds are concerned, the whole covering of the face with a black cloth may even be a bit scary. Would i want my child taught by a woman or man who is masked? My child will never see a look or smile of approval!

And I complete agree with Beeamma and Mariam. You can’t beat the ‘freedom of speech’ and freedom to do what the hell you want drum unless you’re willing to put up with criticism as well. There is very little religious freedom in the Middle East, especially in Saudi. In fact, whether you’re Muslim or not, you HAVE to cover up in Saudi. If this girl wishes to follow an extreme version of her religion or rather, her own interpretation of Islam, she should be doing it in an environment where it is acceptable i.e. either an Islamic school in UK or an Islamic country. I absolutely loathe how Muslims are abusing their rights in the UK and trying to turn it into Saudi. Almost ALL originally from 3rd world countries and instead of appreciating the FREE education and healthcare, welfare etc., they want to cry about covering their entire face! Or take to the streets over cartoons or stupid remarks made by Jack Straw or the Pope. Do they have ANY idea what their lives would have been like, back in Kashmir, Pakistan or wherever they come from?

If we do not allow bikinis on our streets in the Middle East or Pakistan, or even force non-Muslims to cover up (in Saudi) (the muttawas flog you for showing your ankle!) why should we be offended when they merely (and politely) ask us to leave our faces uncovered?

Sori middle east or pakistan you from sarah? Infact you can answer that for me pinyni?

how can you use the word extreme in this? we certainly dont want it to be a Saudi i can assure you that! I dont want to comment on that, if you know Saudi from inside you will know what im referring to.

Free education? lol who you been talking to Sarah? haha someones been trying to sell you England and i find that really funny.

Dont believe everything people tell you and what you see in the news.

Mariam it is sad to come across muslims of your opinion and thats an honest answer.

Unlike yourself i didnt come to this country to take opportunity, my parents came here as it was their right to (British ruled and still own parts of the place they cmae from)

Also i dont believe all this writing written on the net, as you will know all sorts of people could be writing here, consult an alim or a few for your satisfaction.

Its like sarah could write education is free in UK and you can believe that if you wasnt born in England.

I think Pinyni answered all your commnets well before.

Rio, i LIVE in the middle east. and grew up in pakistan.

and as far as i know, public school IS free in England (perhaps there's a minimum fee). you COULD argue that it's free in pakistan too, but had you studied at 'naee roshni school', you wouldn't be amongst us, firing away at a keyboard and typing in English!

your parents had a RIGHT to come to Britain?! so because the british behaved like neanderthals in the 20th century and colonized India, its your turn now?

ahh...it all unravels and begins to sound more like revenge than a true love for religion.

lol revenge against who? my own country? i think not Sarah!

The British in my personal opinion good for India, if they ruled there would be no corruption like we see today. India would be doing really well but then again it aint my country and its only my opinion like ive said.

Lets get back to the point, a girl in veil teaching ok? not wearing the veil!

If i had to interpret, it so called "sounds" that you are bringing up the topic not wearing veil at all from your previous comments which no one in the UK has even addressed.

reading the posts on here m just getting curious what each individual defines as British? When you use the word British are you referring to being being born in Britain or having a British passport! or then is it completely different m only asking this because i believe ther's many out there whom believe.. theres a British culture and by living in in the UK we should adjust to the British culture,my personal view is this is ridiculous,Islam is a way of living you do not adjust the commandments of Allah just to fit into the so called British culture, wer all individuals and the for anyone whom wishes to wear a veil should be respected to do so. Britain is a multi-cultural Country!

no offence to the people who are against supporting this sister, but to me it's like your saying because she's British she should not expect people to be happy about it, well she's not exactly expecting evryone to be happy she just wants to get on with her job and be granted equal opportunities as other staff, regardless of her face being covered! Is this to say in another country; with majority of Muslim population, they would suspend women for not covering!

I have to say i really do agree with Sarah, as far as i knew, it wasn't a requirement either. Show me a line in the quran that says it is and i'll stop coming back to debate this!
Rio, dude, it doesn't look like you have been living in england very long mate. I am afraid i didn't really understand half of what you said in your sentences so i can't really comment on them but i find it rude that you laugh and mock sarah for someone trying to "sell her england". Public education is FREE in england. Even at university (uptil now anyway) your local authorities pay for you to go. And plus the NHS is free. So seriously, i really do not get what some of these monkeys complain about.
I would like to ask Rio if he has even had an education in Britain please?
Plus there is nothing wrong in coming to a country to take advantage of its opportunities. At the end of the day, they benefit from us too. To say you decided to come to england because you have a right to cos they did the same to us, is frankly.....well im just gonna leave it at that, i dont want to get into an argument.

Plus no one has responded to anything i said before. Why was she not wearing a veil to interview. Her argument was flimsy and i do not think it is correct to back someone up solely on the basis of them being muslim, which is what i feel alot of people are doing.
Britain may be a multi-cultural society, but its not an islamic one. Live with it, or go back to Saudi (where you really won't have any rights!)

hey Beeamma
how do you know she had not worn a veil to the interview? because as far as i know she had been wearing it from the day she started work at that school and it was only few weeks later when they started having a problem with it, this is why i was suprised to why it became a problem for them after and not from the begining when whomever employed her!

I dunno, i think toseef mentioned that she hadn't worn it to the interview because she was "caught off guard" she didn't know there would be a male interviewer apparently. Would have thought she would have carried a veil around with her don't you think? I mean if she is that strict about it

hey toseef that true?

I wasn’t planning on replying to this thread however I feel I need to in-order to stop this escalating further. I see most of you guys are going off-topic by saying what if she was in a different country etc. Let’s not get sidetracked and stick to the issue at hand.

My opinion is still the same as I have said in my previous comments (see #11 and #13) and I’ll reply to the comments that followed after.

#14 Bee – as I said earlier, in comment 13, a school and a hospital are two different entities. In regards to the situation you described, yes I do agree that they should have had disciplinary action however I also feel it has nothing to do with this matter dwelling it irrelevant.

>> I feel strongly about this, its unreasonable to expect to be in a non Islamic state, and want them to conform

That’s like saying Sikhs shouldn’t wear a turban because they’re not in India! This is not about the UK being an Islamic state or not, this is about her rights as a British citizen.

>> This teachers argument that she was caught "unawares" by a male teacher makes me raise my eyebrows

In #13 I said male interviewer and not male teacher, and yes I do agree her it does weaken her case. Care to share your opinion when I asked
>> Then again what if a woman who is working as a teacher has a renewed strength in faith that she begins to wear a veil would they suspend her too?

So you think we don’t have freedom of speech? I don’t see why when people like Nick Griffin (head of BNP) can get away with touting the boundaries of UK law and get away with it. We clearly have freedom of speech.

I don’t know why people are linking this to what if she was in a different country (in a so called “Islamic” one). We all know all the shit that takes place in these countries is in everyway opposite to what the holy Quran teaches us, so let’s not compare how her situation might have been in some other country. We all know we came to western countries to take advantage of the standard of living and way of life, and like B said, we also do return the favor.

>> but we must first look at our own islamic states and see what they allow/don't allow us to do before expecting a place like England to let us do it!

No, why should we look to our “Islamic” states before we do anything? The only state we need is the Quran and you know what they say, it’s the only book that can guide us properly untill the end. Anyway, I personally don’t think there is a true Islamic state.

I’m going to try to make this comments as quick as I can so forgive me if I appear blunt. The girl wearing the cross who was told to remove it is suing BA and about the police thing, don’t get me started. If they seriously did consider that you know there would be loads of “new muslims”. Moving on to B’s other comment (from #17)

>> fair enuf infront of a male colleague thats acceptable

… and that is all she was doing. Wearing her veil if she was present with a male teacher and removing it otherwise.

>> b) Dont expect so much of a country thats not an islamic state

>> B is probably my bigger point.

Once again I have addressed these issues above (there is no real Islamic state!)

#21 Mariam, I will jump down to your main argument.

>> what about other people’s right when they feel uncomfortable among veiled person. Would you sit beside a GUY whose face is hidden behind a mask? I know I wouldn’t.

Their only right is to sit somewhere else; there is nothing they can do about it. Hell, you can even go about your daily life with a paper bag over your head if you like, and no-one can do anything about it (not legally, yes I know not the best example but you get my point).

# 23 Beeamma – I agree with your sayings in this comment although not relevant to this post or basis on which they suspended her.

Sarah, some excellent issues raised. By my knowledge you are correct in saying covering the face is not a requirement (that is why I did not say this earlier). If people like Shahid Malik had said what you have, about drawing attention to herself, I would say he had a valid point. If he had asked her to abandon her case on that basis I feel that would be ok.

In regards to how you think about how “Muslims are abusing their rights in the UK and trying to turn it into Saudi” she is not abusing her rights but expressing them to the fullest. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If there was no Freedom of Rights Act I can assure you there wouldn’t be as many people living here as there are, Muslim or not.

As I’ve said a before in this comment, I don’t like how some of you are comparing this to other countries. This is one of the examples of why people migrated to western countries, to get away from the hardships suffered and to live in freedom.

At the end of the day this lady wants to cover her face (for whatever reason) and she can do that. If it affects her job then they can suspend or sack her, and she can dispute this in the courts if she wishes. It just seems the media have got hold of a sensitive and unfamiliar topic to them and have escalated it further than need be.

I’m probably not going to reply any further on this as it would mean me repeating myself and I don’t want to do that. If there is anything in particular about my opinions regarding this that you want to discuss feel free to email me and I will address you privately.

If I have not replied to any your comments it most likely means we’re on the same brain-length, e.g Rio, Asma, Sobi, and G-unit.

Ps: I know I may come across harsh on this so just to let you know I have nothing against any of you guys.

Toseef and All,

I should rephrase my comment.

Let’s keep religion aside as it doesn’t matter veil is required by some religion or not.. Toseef is there any incident where a masked wo/man is allowed to teach kids in England schools? If so then this lady has every right to go on and sue the school district for firing her.

Though this is slightly off topic but I hear UK Muslims are very hard to integrate and they are ghettoized and most of them are on some kind of social assistance and live in poor neighborhoods. I know things get tricky when underprivileged citizens of some country are targeted as all of them feel victimized.

BTW, education is free in England and after certain age govt. provide stipends for low income family kids

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/financialhelp/ema/index.cfm?fuseaction=content.view&CategoryID=93&ContentID=112

>> Toseef is there any incident where a masked wo/man is allowed to teach kids in England schools?

The simple answer is, if it doesn't affect her job (in this case teaching), then yes she is allowed to wear a "mask" (as you put it).

About your off topic comments, though it may be true (I can only give you my opinion), why bring up something like this? Are we going to bring up comments such as these everytime a Muslim wo/man is in the news?

I'm getting an eerie feeling about this and where this is going (and no, it's not because halloween is approaching).

Ok ok i see where everyone is going with this. We are all being very pedantic with our words. Ok so how about, if islam doesn't really require us to wear the veil, then her argument goes flying out the window? Because then it becomes a matter of "rights". she wants the "right" to cover her face when a male colleague is around. Now i understand that and i agree with all you people, maybe she should be given the right to do that....women on the streets are, so why not her? The only thing i can say then is that there must be more to the case than meets the eye. Again, and i know this will frustrate you piniyini (am sorry!!) but she is in a school!!!!!! Thats like saying....oh i want the rights to wear a mini skirt to school in a class as their teacher. Now before everyone starts jumping up and down saying thats a shit example, cos one is clearly indecent, and one is clearly decent (And i agree with you) but the point to my point is that there is an acceptable dress of code in school, and maybe this lady should stick to it. In the end she ended up drawing ridiculous amounts of attention to herself, veil or no veil, so what really was the point?
And if this is purely a battle of rights and not of what islam requires us to do, then would you be happy some male teacher teaching your daughters with a mask on his face?

>> Mufti Abdul Kadir Barakatullah, who is affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain, said "I am 100% sure that wearing the veil is not obligatory on Muslim women. It is a matter of choice."

After a lot of thought I'm beginning to have a different view on this, maybe she should have removed the veil especially when attention was drawn on her on a national level (i.e. the press) and that way she would have saved the muslims a lot of bother.

*does a double take*
*rubs her eyes*

*walks off befuddled*

;) hehe

"Are we going to bring up comments such as these everytime a Muslim wo/man is in the news?"

No offense intended but lot of people (including Non British Muslims too) are agreeing that Muslim immigrant community is not paying their share to the society. They are creating a situation where second and third generations are inclining towards radical religion. Though I think the European countries too are at fault for not doing enough to integrate them. Minorities are discriminated routinely on the basis of color and social status. Here in the US the people who are on welfare (social assistance) too unable to break poverty cycle and have ill feelings for the administration for their misfortunes. So I thought maybe since most of them felt to be outcastes by the society so that’s why they are turning their energy towards such petty and useless issues. As we all know poverty breeds hopelessness and even worst crime. I guess after few bombing incidences in the west people are pointing the finger at their defective upbringing which led some sick minds to use European citizens for their inhumane agendas. I’ve been to England and I know sometimes it’s not possible to live a free life due to social pressure as some families had to make their girls to wear Hijab otherwise they’ll be consider loose and who wants to marry such a girl.

Great minds do differ ;).

Nah pinyni she shouldnt take it off in any circumstances. maybe left the job to avoid bad publicity to muslims