My Response To "A Gay Muslim?"
Wednesday 19th October 2005 12:54:00 PM
Continued from A Gay Muslim?
Oh man, where do I start with all this shit? Everything is erupting all over the place. Had full day at Uni today so didn't get much a chance to read up or reply. Noticed that Dawn has brought attention to this post over at her place and everyone is having a slanging match. God bless her.
I'll start with people commenting in this place and take it from there.
Jon - I forgot to address this issue in my previous reply to you when you said "So, if your interpretation of Islam includes homosexuality as a sin, then no, gay + Muslim are mutually exclusive. That's pretty obvious."
Forget my interpretation of Islam; I wanna know what the bottom line is - is being gay accepted in Shariah Law or in the Quran? If not, clearly a gay person cannot be Muslim.
Sin - It's a pleasure having you here, thanks for dropping by and boggling the mind even more! Ay, I have also heard about molvi's abusing kids (there was a documentary on the bbc more than a year ago about this where a little girl's family sued him and won). I reckon this is only a small minority and does not reflect the actual situation. In our community molvi's are excellent guides who provide top-notch advice (and it all makes sense too).
" but certainly not as the arbiters of what is and isn't 'Islamic' " - Kinda disagree, they (molvi's and aalims) are the ones who have memorized the Quran word for word and know all its meaning. If not them, then who?
The thing about paedophiles is that they've got a screw loose, nowhere in Islam does it say that molesting kids is acceptable. I saw a documentary on Panarama where they were interviewing a convicted paedo who was saying he actually thought kids wanted him to do stuff to them. When asked how? He replied "the way they look at me". There was loads of other sick stuff aswell which I won't go into. Clearly a paedo cannot be a Muslim, not until he can control his actions and resist.
Well done on you studying medieval Arabic and reading (and understanding) the Quran. Due to this topic I am thinking of reading an English version, maybe it will bring me closer to God.
"drinking to the point of insensibility and/or intoxication is what's forbidden, not simply drinking" - Wow that is news to me, might start taking the occasional sip here and there!
"but the truth of the matter is that I drink and don't fast not because I simply don't have a great deal of faith, period" - So you have a great deal of faith yet drink and don't keep rozay anyway? I'm confused, to say the least, about this one.
Like I said to Jon, I can understand when you say you've known you were gay for as long as you can remember and that it is beyond your control.
Moving on from Sin ... BBCD left the next comment.
"Faith is individual, if someone thinks of themselves as part of it then thats ok, we pratice what we do for ourselves not for anyone else." - What if someone doesn't do anything Islamic at all, is it still ok to let them carry on thinking they're Muslim?
Ali - sorry mate I don't know who they are. Did a little googlin' on Irshad Manji and will read more later. At the moment I have loads of Uni research to do!
Mrs. A - I agree mostly with what you say; I take back what I said about committing a sin and not being a Muslim but I believe homosexuality is a totally different matter. It can't be compared to other sins, not in my mind. I think you are taking this too far by linking my views to shirk, no way would I go down that route but I can see where you are coming from. As I've said before, I honestly think you can say to an extent whether someone is Muslim or not, otherwise people could be doing all sorts of things and it would be disrespectable not to draw the line somewhere. My molvi sahib (oh so many years ago) used to say that if a roza is missed on purpose without a valid reason and he/she does not ask forgiveness and make up for it, it can be said they are not Muslim until they take necessary measures.
Sarah - Hi, you say "committing sins are a part of being a human being and you don't get thrown out of religion for it" and I agree. It is known that the only person who is without sin is the prophet (pbuh). Homosexuality is a different kind of sin, whereas with other sins one will probably stop later on and ask for forgiveness I don't imagine gay people doing this.
That's all the comments on my blog right now and I'm gonna continue further in my next post (when I get time for it). There's so much I want to say about this topic. I would continue but I need some sleep and I've also got a deadline for this Friday. Ciao for now.
Posted by Piniyini
Blog Posts
<< Forget my interpretation of Islam; I wanna know what the bottom line is - is being gay accepted in Shariah Law or in the Quran? >>
No matter how much of a united front ANY religion poses, the bottom line is that everyone has their own individual interpretations.
Sin mentioned arguments which showed that going by a certain interpretation, being gay should be no problem in Islam. Ask any other person and you'll get a different opinion.
<< Ay, I have also heard about molvi's abusing kids. I reckon this is only a small minority and does not reflect the actual situation. >>
It reflects EXACTLY on the actual situation. Believe me. I know. Firsthand.
<<< My molvi sahib (oh so many years ago) used to say that if a roza is missed on purpose without a valid reason and he/she does not ask forgiveness and make up for it, it can be said they are not Muslim until they take necessary measures. >>>
With all due respect, he was an idiot.
"Kinda disagree, they (molvi's and aalims) are the ones who have memorized the Quran word for word and know all its meaning. If not them, then who?"
That's where you genuinely miss the entire point of Islam. They may well have memorised the Quran and all the Hadith and recipes for pancakes into the bargain, but at the end of the day, Islam has ALWAYS been about a personal relationship between a person and Allah, with no one else entitled to step in and declare anything valid or not.
You want a bottom law, it's fairly simple: the Quran doesn't actually explicitly speak out against or for any form of sexuality (gay, straight, or bi). If you assume that there's nothing said against being gay, then QED, being gay and Muslim is a possibility.
Also, if you're confused about what I wrote re: having faith, read the entire sentence again. I may have mistyped something, but I'm fairly sure that it's just my verbose writing style that may have tripped you up.
pinniy: again i agree with sin *damn it, i feel like his little cheer leader of something* lol Yayyee Sin *waves pom pom* *ahem*
But i reply to you question...
"What if someone doesn't do anything Islamic at all, is it still ok to let them carry on thinking they're Muslim?"
... who are you jaan, to take away there right to have faith?
Toseef,
Please consider the following:
If Islam is meant for all of humanity, and homosexuals are a part of that set. Then isn't it meant for homosexuals too.
Its simple logic. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
- Dorian
it says in the Quran that Harzat Looth's ppl were homosexuals and Allah told them thro him to stop their acts but they didnt listen.Allah brought down His azaab on them. if that isnt speaking against homosexuality then i dont know wat is.
an there r no 'possibilities' in Islam,Sin.one cant be a muslim and a jew,right and wrong,muslim an gay??..i dont know,coz then again there r muslims who r murderers,muslims who commit suicide,when we all know that ISlams against all these acts. but i agreee with u that Islam is about a personal relationship between Allah an oneself,for its only Him who knows wats in r hearts and r intentions even before we know it
Being a murderer or committing suicide required free will. Homosexuality is out of your control.
And Sin's entire argument is that when the story of Lot is narrated in the Quran, those people are condemned not for their homosexuality as it is popularly interpreted, but because of them forcing their will on other people (kinda like rape ? ).
He condemned them for their homosexuality coz he has FORBIDDEN it.there r ppl who have dedicated their lives to the 'right' interpretation of the Quran.hundreds of ppl for hundreds of years.one cant change the meaning one day to suit oneself better.Allah has made everyone in pairs,male an female,and as evident from Hazrat Noohs wakia, wants to keep it that way.
ive always wondered if its in r control or not.if it isnt then y has He forbidden homosexuality? shodnt he understand that one didnt have a choice? if it is in ones control,then y doesnt one change to please Him?
if u look up the issue of women in Islam in the Quran,He has clearly talked abt wives,their rights,hakmehir,mehram namehram, divorce,inheritance.there r pages an pages of this. and not a single word if its ok for a man to be with or marry another man?! (or a woman with another woman for that matter)
did He forget to mention it? did He think we wod understand wat he means an read between the lines?? did He think the interpretors wod do a good enough job?
jon look at the obvious first (in case of Hazrat Looth) an then maybe,agar humay Allah itni tufeeq aur foresight de,between the lines
you said in response to my earlier comment that "homosexuality is a different kind of sin".
i think that is a rather ridiculous response, followed up by an even sillier explanation (people may stop later on and ask for forgiveness). does that mean that if a gay guy asks for forgiveness just before he is about to die (whether you can imagine it or not isn't relevant), its all good, he'll be forgiven and welcomed into heaven?
by that logic, it still appears to be a forgivable sin and not one that gets you thrown out of islam.
the issue is FAITH, belief in Allah, in his Prophet etc - these are the fundamental requirements of islam. the kalma does not make any mention of sexual orientation - it does not go as follows: "i believe in one God and one Propher and heterosexuality" - congratulations! you are now a muslim!
and finally, if someone wants to carry on thinking that they are muslim (in spite of their unislamic actions), why does it bother you or anyone else?! like i said earlier, you aren't god - only he can decide whether a person is muslim or not, good or not, worthy of paradise or not (remember that prostitute who rescued a dog went to heaven?).
This is a very interesting topic, I shall join in with my opinions once I'm free.
Hi everyone,
I came across this conversation thread after searching for "gay muslim" on blogspot. Before I throw my two cents in, I should clarify where my bias lies. I am a gay Muslim (whether or not you agree with that concept, it is how I choose to self-identify).
I was glad to see above that some people had actually mentioned the Qur'an in their arguments against Homosexuality in Islam. The Qur'anic injunction against homosexuality comes to us from the story of Lot. In this story Lot tells his people (Al A'araf: 80-84) "Have you become so shameless that you commit such acts as no one committed before you in the world? you gratify your lust with men instad of women: indeed you are a people who are transgressors of all limits!" (this is the Muadudi translation for those who're interested)
This story repeats itself with no significant variation several times in the Qur'an. Regretably, (in my opinion) it would seem that the Qur'an is rather anti-Homosexuality. However, one could reasonably ask to what degree this story is simply a history lesson, and does not apply to contemporary society. I think such an argument is not really feasible, because the Qur’an often couches moral lessons in such historical anecdotes. So, it would seem that the Qur’an is unequivocally anti-Homosexuality.
Having said that, one should also ask to what degree Homosexuality represents the arch-sin in Islam. I think people tend to focus too much attention on homosexual acts. True, it is forbidden by Islam, but we cannot reasonably argue that people who commit homosexual acts cannot call themselves Muslim. One would not, for example, suggest that a Muslim who drinks is not a Muslim, or cannot call themselves a Muslim.
My own understanding of Islam and its prohibition of Homosexuality isn’t entirely based on a reading of the Qur’an. I know that my sexuality is not something that I can help. I can’t simply marry a woman (I think that’d be unfair for both of us). I feel, however, that this is between me and God. My conception of God is not of a being that relishes punishing for the sake of punishment. I’m banking on the fact that God will understand that I am human and weak, and will instead look to all the other good that I have done, and forgive me this trespass. I’m not willing to believe in a God who is so petty that he would punish someone for something they can’t change.
Ok, that’s all I wanted to say. I’m sure I’ve blabbered on too much.
Brothers and sisters in Islam and Humanity, to all Muslims and Non-Muslims,
Peace be upon you all. I have read all the above comments and points of view. In my view, one who is a Muslim is one who has faith in Allah Subhaanu wa Ta'ala, His Prophet Muhammad (saw), the Holy Books, Angels, Life after Death and divine destination etc.
Therefore, the kalimah tayyibah is the basis of ones entry into Islam. After that, it is between the person in question and Allah regarding his/her faith and actions.
Now being gay raises a question in terms of sin. The majority of scholars in Islam have appeared to declare it as a major sin in terms of "sodomy". The Arabic terms in the Holy Qur'an Majeed that are used pertaining to the People of Lut (Alaihi Salaam) are LIWAAT (Sodomy) and FAAHISHA (transgression).
Now, one must look at the context of this story. There are numerous ahadeeth (traditions of the Prophet Muhaamad saw and his sahaah ikraam) that have also been interpreted and classed in categories.
Firstly you need to understand that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is the only story in the Quran and Hadith on which the condemnation of homosexuality is based. However in certain research we have discovered that the act which Allah despised was not anal sex, but the abuse of sexual power and the act of penetrating a man without his consent. This is clearly evident when you read the story in the Quran with the history of Sodom and Gomorrah and the archeological findings which shows what kind of setup prevailed in Sodom and Gomorrah. So there is no basis in the Quran to condemn anyone on the basis of sexual orientation neither does the Quran (in the original Arabic text of it) condemn anal sex with consent.
Regarding the verdict by Ali that the two men who wanted to marry should be burnt, was based on what Allah did to Sodom and Gomorrah. However in the history of Sodom and Gomorrah we did not find any evidence that men had married each other to say the least. Also, the hadith is not found in the authentic section of Hadith and hence it is questionable.
This is only some of the literature considered. The people of Lut (alaihi salaam) used to commit all types of atrocities from male rape in public to inhospitality of guests, to robberies and gambling etc.
Furthermore, in order to understand the Holy Qur'an and to form tafaaseer (commentries), one must understand the Arabic language in much depth including its etailed grammar with its theological contexts. This means that a normal lay Arab cannot merely interpret it, as Arabs themselves do not know the complex grammar well. This needs an aalim who has studied for many years.
Now, from here, there are further problems. Aalims will also put their own bias into the matters. For example a heterosexual aalim will be against homosexuality already and a gay aalim will be bias towards it. One MUST be neautral towards this topic entirely to interpret it.
The following may be helpful:
http://www.mask.org.za/article.php?cat=islam&id=729
May Allah forgive me and any others for any wrong actions or writings. But it is time that the Islamic world acknowledged homosexuality propely and realised that it doesnt consist of men commiting animalisic anal penetration. It involves feelings, love and alot more. Furthermore, there are many gay Muslims in this worls who are practising and high in imaan, but are either closetted due to marriage/pressures from family to marry, or due to being scared of being victimised.
I hope this is of some help to people. And Allah knows best.